In this episode of All Things STEM, host Dr. Frank Gomez speaks with Susan Keefe, California Director of Beyond Plastics and former Oracle executive, about one of the most misunderstood issues in environmental policy: the belief that plastic recycling works as intended.
After nearly 30 years in the technology sector, Susan shifted her career toward environmental advocacy following a personal reckoning tied to chemical contamination and childhood cancer cases in her hometown of Toms River, New Jersey. That experience led her to examine the connections between plastics, fossil fuels, public health, and corporate accountability.
Throughout the conversation, Susan explains why plastic recycling was never designed to function at scale, how decades of industry messaging shaped public behavior, and what actually happens to plastic once it enters the waste stream. She draws on policy research, waste-tracking investigations, and on-the-ground advocacy to illustrate where systems fail—and where meaningful change can still occur.
Listeners will also hear insights on:
The health risks associated with plastics and their chemical additives
Why “recyclable” labels are often misleading
Gaps in enforcement of California’s plastic reduction laws
Practical steps individuals, communities, and institutions can take now
This episode offers a clear look at the realities behind plastic use and recycling, and challenges listeners to rethink convenience, demand transparency, and consider solutions that protect public health and the environment.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Hello. I'm your host, Dr. Frank Gomez, and this is All Think STEM. In today's episode, we spotlight the journey of Susan Keefe, a former high-tech leader at Oracle who became a compelling voice in the fight against plastic pollution. After a thirty-year career in technology, Susan made a bold and deeply personal pivot into environmental advocacy, driven by the chemical contamination that devastated her hometown of Toms River, New Jersey. Today, she serves as the California director for Beyond Plastics, where she confronts one of America's most persistent and most misleading environmental myths that plastic recycling works.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Her work has also gained national media attention. Join us as we explore her powerful story, her national impact, and her unwavering mission to protect our health, environment, and future. Susan, it's great to have you on today.
Susan Keefe
Thank you so much, Frank. I really appreciate you having me on the, podcast. Thank you.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
I mean, I've heard a mountain load of what you've been doing since you've pivoted from your previous high-tech job at Oracle. And, you are making great strides in in really protecting a lot of us. You know that?
Susan Keefe
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. I've certainly been busy in the last few years since I, since I left my career at Oracle. And, yeah, it's, as you mentioned, it's a this is a big it's a big issue we're trying to solve.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
So tell, you know, tell us, when was that moment you knew it was time to step away from your previous career and take on this issue of, environmental pollution, contributing to climate change?
Susan Keefe
Well, I wish there was an exact moment, but I'll try I'll try to nail that down. So, you know, I've always been a lover of the ocean.I grew up actually at the Jersey Shore. I don't know if you if you're aware of that. And I moved to Northern California in the early nineties, and that actually made me into a true nature lover. I love the ocean, but I didn't really know much about hiking or, you know, skiing or any of the other wonderful things.
Susan Keefe
But moving to California really changed that for me. I lived in Northern California, and I really got into composting and recycling and, you know, native plants, and I planted gardens in San Francisco and Oakland where I lived. I joined Oracle in '94, so it was a long time ago, and, was there almost, almost thirty years. And I had the privilege to travel a ton in my job. I traveled a lot internationally, and that was exciting, but also really eye opening.
Susan Keefe
I think the first time I really saw pollution at a massive scale was traveling in Southeast Asia, especially in India. And and that really made an impression on me. I think here in The US, we do a much better job of hiding our pollution, especially, like, massive amounts of pollution because we have landfills and such. Anyway, I think as the West Coast Fires started to get more and more intense, I started to think about what a warming planet can do and what, you know, kind of legacy that's going to leave for my children. I have three.
And I started reading more about climate change and kind of the role each of us has to play, and I started looking at my own consumption habits and my own waste because none of us, as much as we try, can lead a zero waste lifestyle. And I really started to consider an environmentally based career actually back in 2019. But then COVID happened. And I hit pause because there was just too much uncertainty, and I, I actually just didn't feel it was the time to leave. And it was interesting. I don't know if you I mean, we all remember COVID.
You know, when it first happened and everyone stopped flying and driving, and suddenly, you know, everything got a little bit cleaner. We started having more wildlife sightings. Waters got cleaner, and, people weren't out there polluting. But the flip side to that was that people were ordering a whole lot of takeout. And I remember seeing that because I had teenagers at home during, during that time. And there was so much plastic. It just drove me nuts. And I started looking at that, and I just thought, you know, I gotta be brave. I gotta do something.
I still didn't know that I was going to go into the plastic space. I thought I was actually going to focus on food waste because there's a lot of food waste as well from all that delivery and takeout. So in the 2021, I guess my exact moment came when I decided to resign from Oracle, but I didn't actually leave until February 28.And that was an interesting time to leave because that was right around the time when Russia invaded Ukraine.
Yet another moment in our lives with massive human and environmental implications. So that's when I left, and, yeah, I've been gone ever since.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
You know, you bring up, COVID, Jersey girl, okay, Susan. And, I remember during the, the middle of COVID, taking a drive on the five, up to, LA County. And there was, like, nobody there
Susan Keefe
Yeah.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
And on the freeway, but the air was so clean. It was blue.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Yeah.
Susan Keefe
And it was it was just I was just like unbelievable. And then we started seeing around the house these different animals. We do have squirrels and stuff like that, but we saw them in mass around the house. And it was, it was beautiful yet eerie that we would see some of these animals just walking around as if they're reclaiming their land during the COVID times. So, you know, I I get your drift there in terms of, you know, they there was a beautiful parts, and as you mentioned, the not so nice parts in terms of more plastic, because people were doing UberLyfts and everything like that.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Yep. So, you know, let's, let's go back to your time, you know, back at Tom Toms River. How do you learn the truth? How did learning about the truth, really reshape your understanding of plastics and their connection with the health?
Susan Keefe
Yeah. So, thanks for asking about that. Yeah. As I mentioned, I when I left my job, I wasn't exactly sure what I was going to focus on. In fact, what's funny, I met with a good friend of mine who, works with a bunch of CEOs in the Silicon Valley to be more sustainable, and he has these climate summits. And I met with him, and I said, do you think I should focus on plastic? And he said, oh, are you kidding? Plastics everywhere. He goes, focus on something else. So he completely discouraged me. But, but, yeah, Toms River. I so I I left Toms River.
I went away to college Philadelphia, and, I actually never really thought much about my time, you know, in Toms River other than I still had some family members there, but most of them moved to the Philadelphia area. So I really just kind of left that part of my life behind, and focused on my, you know, college and post, you know, college life. And so, during that time that I left Oracle, I, you know, I spent a couple of years really learning about the biggest contributors to climate change, fossil fuels, which, of course, led me down to the path of plastics, because plastics are made from fossil fuels.
And, I don't know. Fun fact, I don't know if you realize this, but if plastics were a country, it would be the fifth largest polluter in the world because
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Oh my god.
Susan Keefe
It's unbelievable. Right? And I just think that this connection between, you know, climate change and plastic is really underappreciated. Anyway, it was one day about three years ago that I came across this TED Talk called the Legacy of Plastics, and it was by an environmental sociologist named Rebecca Altman who I did not know. And I don't even remember how I was just researching stuff. And, anyway, she talked about the history of plastic, which I knew a little bit about because I used to collect radios that were made of the first synthetic plastic, Bakelite.
They were really colorful and cool. And my first job was in the advertising industry, so I was like, I had all these collections of these Bakelite radios. But, anyway, she told, the story about bakelite, but then she also told the story about her father who worked for Union Carbide. And this was back in the late sixties. And he were when he worked for Union Carbide, Union Carbide was making poly styrene, and that's the same plastic that Styrofoam is made of, but they also Polystyrene is also used to make rigid plastics like coffee lids.
So if you go buy a cup of coffee and you look at the bottom of the lid, it'll have a little six on it, and that's the resin code for polystyrene. Anyway, this was also around the time in the late sixties that plastic was evolving from being a manufactured product like a, like a, you know, a radio or a car bumper to a disposable single use product, like a coffee lid. So she told this story, Frank, that really shook me up. She goes on this road trip with her dad, to Union Carbide, which had been closed for years, and he left many years, many, many years ago.
And, they ended up go it's in New Jersey. Right? So they ended up going to the ocean after that, and they went to this town adjacent to the ocean, Toms River, which is where I spent my childhood. And she is in the on this trip with her dad, and they he takes her to this park. And she describes the park as being, like, overgrown and polluted. And she's is my dad taking me to this park in Toms River? And they come upon this memorial.
And the memorial, was erected to basically, honor ninety cases of children who died in my hometown. Population at the time was about 50,000 people, by the way, during the early eighties into the early nineties. And I was just stunned. You know, as I said, I left Toms River in the mid eighties and never really looked back, and this was the first time I had even heard about the shocking number of children that died in my hometown. A lot of them were girls too.
I I don't exactly know why, but and I just get the chills when I think about it because I immediately realized those cancer deaths had to be linked to the chemical plant that I lived a half a mile from called Ciba Geigy, and one of my family members actually worked there.
And then thanks to the Google, I was able to very quickly learn about the harm that this chemical plant did to my hometown and the just millions and millions of tons of plastic, chemical waste. They made dyes as well. So all the chemicals that were involved in the dyes and the plastics that they dumped into these huge, pits that they referred to as black lagoons all over Toms River, hidden behind pine trees and stuff. They dumped into the Toms River, of course. They dumped it into the ocean. I mean, it was really horrific.
And then I learned there was a 500 page book written about this entire disaster that run won the Pulitzer Prize in 2014, aptly called Tom Trigger. And I literally had no idea. And it was just an incredible story about corruption and greed and, you know, elected officials who just looked the other way while all this stuff was going on in the name of job creation and prosperity. And it really made me think about this terrible legacy of my hometown, and it compelled me to learn all I could about plastic.
And not just the fact that they're made from fossil fuels, but the dangerous and life altering chemicals that all plastic has. And, yeah.I mean, the problem with plastic, Frank, it's everywhere. Right? It's polluting the planet. It's, you know, driving climate change, and, you know, it's making people sick. So this is the primary reason why I decided to get into this line of work.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Well, we can thank, Leo Baekelund, for Bakelite, for what they call the material of a thousand uses for what we're living with, and through right now. And, it certainly will never go away because it is part of our of everything that we almost everything that we purchase has, has plastics within it.
Susan Keefe
It's true. But the but the big shift that happened, right, was instead of it being a plastic card bumper or a plastic, I don't know, for our computer, we're now, you know, using plastic for, you know, five minutes, ten minutes, you know, and then throwing it away, you know, not understanding, of course, that that plastic never really goes away.
Right? It just breaks up into smaller and smaller pieces. And that plastic is not just plastic. It's also got all the chemicals of concern that we've all heard about through, you know, the various scientific studies that have been coming out for the last several years.It's found everywhere, every organ of our body, in our blood. It's even caught crossed the blood brain barrier. And I don't know about you, but I don't want, you know, plastic in my lungs. I don't want plastic passed on to newborn children. It's affecting fertility rates.
It's affecting, you know, disease. It's been linked to dementia and cardiovascular problems. So it's got some serious, serious health implications.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Let's shift a little bit to, I guess, the myth of plastic recycling and how it was really never designed to work. But, you know, share with us some of those biggest myths that, the general population should kind of put to the side and say, that's not true.
Susan Keefe
Yeah. It's a really tough one. I mean, we we absolutely have to get let go of this myth or this illusion of plastic recycling. And the plastic is circular. We hear that a lot. You know, you see circular economy and the circularity of plastics. You know, I hear that I just wanna scream, and that plastic can be recycled back into itself like aluminum or paper or cardboard or glass, and that's simply not true. And I think it's important to understand why.
And, you know, Frank, you probably know this better than I do being a being a a chemistry professor and engineer and knowing so much about how chemicals work. Right? I had to learn all of this in the last, you know, five or six years. But, you know, plastic, as I said, is made from oil and gas along with, yeah, sixteen, seventeen thousand different chemicals. And they need to add those chemicals for color and rigidity and flexibility and, you know, water resistance and all that stuff. Right?
And I tell people, think about plastic like, you know, like a scrambled egg. You know, you can't just unscramble it, and that means you can't just recycle it.You know, it's each kind of plastic, whether it's a bottle or a lid or, you know, a a clamshell container that we buy our berries in, basically needs to be recycled with that exact same kind of plastic for it to be successful. And it has to be sorted and cleaned and and into a single stream in order for that to happen. You know, and as I said, plastic can't be turned back into its the its same item. Right? A plastic cup can't be turned into another plastic cup.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Yeah.
Susan Keefe
At best, it can be downcycled into something that is of less value. And none of this none of this this is the other really important thing to note, and I was in business for thirty years. It's not economically viable. Right?There's no money in plastic recycling, which is why we see recycling factories close all the time. So it's technically almost impossible, and then it's not economically viable. And yet, for years, we've been deceived by the plastics industry thinking that plastic is indeed recyclable. You know, the plastic industry is pretty savvy.
Now I worked in advertising for a few years before I pivoted to tech and, you know, I know a bit about PR and advertising, and, man, they've done a really good job. And they were so smart that in the late eighties, they decided to steal the chasing arrow symbol that people came to recognize as meaning something's recyclable. And they imprinted that symbol on virtually every place of piece of plastic. And that symbol was really just meant to contain the resin code of the type of plastics. Right? Whether it's six for polystyrene or one for polyethylene. And instead, people were like, oh, look. This is recyclable.
And then, of course, some brands went further and said, oh, well, this is a 100% recyclable. They'd even imprint that on the, you know, on the package itself. And this has really seriously misled people to believe that plastic is a recyclable material. And, you know, the oil and gas industry is just hell bent on protecting their profits. I mean, especially as, you know, they've lost a little bit of, you know, market share in terms of the energy and gas, right, as people shift to electric appliances and electric cars.
They are very focused on making sure that they can make money off of plastics for a long, long time to come. And, you know, I I don't know how many of your listeners are aware, but, you know, we actually filed a landmark lawsuit in September. California's attorney general, Rob Bonta, spent years working with subject matter experts on a lawsuit, against the largest producer of plastic polymers, ExxonMobil. And it accused the company of engaging in a decades long, fifty years deception that caused and exacerbated plastic pollution in the state of California.
So, you know, hopefully, through this action, attorney general, Bonta will, get an abatement fund, and civil penalties for the harm that ExxonMobil has caused to California's communities. But, of course, the lawsuit will take years to settle. And in the meantime, people are continuing to recycle, plastic, but I hope that we will move away from that illusion based upon everything that I just shared and hopefully the success of this lawsuit. Because if we do not stop counting on recycling, we will never ever reduce the plastic pollution that's produced and used in this country.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Since we're on the industry line right now, let's bring up, one of the biggest corporations doing work related to recycling, waste management and their, their recent, change in accepting plastic and paper cups for recycling. You've been a non backer, a push backer on this. Why is their announcement misleading?
Susan Keefe
I have indeed. Yeah.That announcement was so maddening and misleading, especially, Frank, since they referred and referenced Starbucks, as a collaborative partner and included a quote from Starbucks' chief sustainability officer. So, you know, here we have a misleading, dare I say, lying, announcement from the largest waste hauler in the country collaborating with the largest coffee chain, in the world claiming that these single use cups are recyclable. So what I like to tell people is accepting is not recycling. Accepting these things in the bin is not recycling.
And, you know, somebody asked me, well, why would they say that if it's not something that, you know, is gonna be recycled? Well, I mean, I'm a business person. One reason, maintain and increase their market share, which obviously translates to shareholder value. Another reason is revenues. These companies make much more money on the recycling bins than they do on the trash bins. They also make money sorting and bailing and sending them God knows where. So meanwhile, their customers are tricked, you know, to a customer. If I'm just a customer, my waist hauler says, hey.
You can put those items in your curbside bin and it'll be for recycling. I believe that that means it'll actually be recycled. I mean, when you we all would think that. But the reality is that these materials ultimately where they actually ultimately end up is an industry secret. They never tell you where the materials actually go. So I'd say two things, accepting isn't recycling and show me the factories. Where are the factories that these materials will ultimately go to for I'm not gonna say recycling because there really is no such thing when it comes to plastic, but for reprocessing.
And none of those factories are ever shared or listed. And I think companies should be challenged. They have to provide proof that the items they collect are actually sent to responsible US factories. They can't just export it to Indonesia or Malaysia or Mexico and say, you know, it's being recycled. Otherwise, I think this is a false claim, and it's not just made by, you know, the waste company.
It's made by the coffee company, you know, who's quoted in this release that's trying to profit off of the plastic recycling myth.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
That is why it's so important to verify and validate, in in in, in all these different companies. I mean, there's this connection between, you know, there's the, you know, what we what is or is not recyclable. There's waste. There's too much waste. There's, you know, how it is defined, how it is collected, where is it sent. Is it sent within our confines of The US internationally and all the damage that we possibly do that external to The US, which brings me now to at least if we can be more local, if California is local, although it's millions of square miles possibly.
I haven't actually tricked how big California is from a miles perspective, Probably 800 miles from south to north, but environmental loss, okay?Which, it certainly is good politically for our leaders. But they, enforcement remains inconsistent. You know, spring up Styrofoam, one of your favorites. Okay. And AB twelve seventy six, AKA, which I has a nice tune to it, but we know it's not that nice. Skip the stuff. Okay. Why is enforcement both elusive and continues to persist?
Susan Keefe
Yeah. I mean, it's a great question, and it's so interesting. I just listened to, a podcast by another nonprofit who was just patting themselves on the back for, you know, all the work they did passing some of these laws. And I think that the enforcement gap exists for a bunch of reasons. I mean, not the least of which is we don't inspect what we expect from our laws. We don't do a look back.
We pat ourselves in the back, and we say, yay. We banned Styrofoam or, yay. We banned plastic bags. And we don't actually think about, you know, the fact that enforcement is often an afterthought. Sometimes these laws are poorly written, and enforcement is passed down to the local jurisdiction. And that local jurisdiction often doesn't have tools or staff to enforce the law, and skip this skip this stuff is a great example of this.
The law was passed actually, it was, yeah, passed in 2021, and it went into full effect in 2022.And it was in response to the fact that people were overwhelmed by all the stuff they got in their takeout bags and delivery. You know, you'd open up your bag during COVID and just you'd had tons of, you know, forks and knives and condiment packages and straws. And you're like, wait a minute. I'm eating at home. Like, why do I need all this stuff?
And so even though it's been in effect since 2022, here in Orange County where I live, we don't have any cities really acknowledging it. Enforcement is really lacking because there was no communication. There was no education, no outreach, you know. So I'm trying to change that in Southern California, by working with the enforcement agencies, which I had to do research to figure out who even who they were. And they're the county health inspectors. They are the ones tasked with enforcing the skip the stuff law. And as you can imagine, that's really challenging. Right?
Susan Keefe
Because they're looking for all kinds of things when they go into a restaurant. You know, health, you know, cleanliness, you know, rodents, you know, all kinds of things before they give them a a grade. And SkipTheSock wasn't even listed as one of the items on their checklist. That was one of the first things I investigated was, can you share your checklist? Like, is this even on there? So step one, get it on the checklist. Step two, get them to communicate the law.
Susan Keefe
Step three, get local cities to also understand and communicate the law to their, you know, restaurants within their city limits. It's a lot of work. So this is an example of why, you know, that law has not been widely enforced. Unless there was a local law that preceded it, where that somehow was being enforced by local authorities, it's it's something most people don't even know about here in Orange County, and and parts of San Diego and parts of LA, which I spent a lot of time covering.
Susan Keefe
So, and on the Styrofoam law, that's kind of its own special, special thing. It's been incredibly frustrating because in California, we have over 130 local laws on Styrofoam. Where I lived in the Bay Area, Styrofoam had been banned for, I don't know, twenty years, for food service. So you couldn't use it for, like, cups and plates and bowls and things like that.But this is our first state law, and it actually came into effect on January 1. But the law, s b 54, passed in 2022.
Susan Keefe
So they've had plenty of time to know that this was coming. The problem with that one, Frank, is that, in the law, s b 54, they set, a ridiculous recycling target for polystyrene, expanded polystyrene and expanded polystyrene, of 25%.And they gave producers two and a half years to meet that recycling target. We have no factories in The United States that at any scale, a couple boutique factories here and there, that reprocess and accept polystyrene. Right? It just isn't a thing.
So why they thought that the 25% anybody would ever get there, they should have just outright banned the material, and then we wouldn't have this problem, you know, almost three years now later that we still can find polystyrene on the shelves because, you know, the producers are still trying to meet that 25%.
Fortunately, I've made many calls to the attorney general's office. They issued a notification, gosh, it's just, two weeks ago. It was this month, basically saying, hey. The law is enforced. You know, the law is enforced. It's in full effect. You know, $50,000 per penalty per day if you continue to sell polystyrene in or into the state of California. So hopefully, maybe something might change. I mean, it's going away, but you I can still buy it on Amazon. I can still find it in stores, you know, in in large quantities.
So if I'm a restaurant, I mean, I still have access to that. And then I guess another, reason for these, enforcement issues are loopholes. Sometimes our laws are just not written well enough. And, again, the plastic industry, the oil and gas industry is betting on plastics. And so anytime they can find a loophole, they will. And a great example of that is the plastic bag ban. So you might remember we bagged we banned plastic bags in 2014. That was a long time ago at grocery stores. I mean, it was just limited to grocery stores.
But they somehow found a way to make them thicker and call them reusable. So it has taken I don't know.Like, they've been the thicker bags have been around for at least five years or more. It's taken all this time to finally, on January 1, they will be banned from grocery stores.But this is another reason why I think these we have problems with enforcement is because, you know, of all those issues.
Dr. Frank A.Gomez
You state some of these laws are poorly written. And you mentioned you stated one thing. We don't inspect what we expect.
Susan Keefe
Right.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
And I kind of sum it up. It appears our expectations are either too high for our elected or they're the wrong people in office. Okay.
Susan Keefe
Right. I agree.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your, your activities, really in action out there. One of them where you use tracking devices to follow plastic waste after it had been thrown away. Tell us a little bit about the results, what it revealed, and, who it affects most.
Susan Keefe
Yeah. So trackers are kind of fun, actually, you know, because it feels like you're actually doing something. Right? You know, you can glue a tracker in a plastic cup or in a yogurt tub or a plastic clamshell and actually see it on your phone and see where it goes. I think one of the most revealing, and that's another reason why it's so irritating to see this waste management Starbucks, you know, announcement, is that, you know, Starbucks is one of the first, companies I decided to focus on because not only were they using, you know, billions of single use plastic cups, their cold business, a cold cup business, represents, like, 75% of their business.
Or, you know, they still sell coffee, but people want it in a, you know, get a cold drink with a bunch of, like, sweet things in it now.Anyway, I worked with CBS, New York on a story that aired in 18 markets, and we glued those trackers into cups. And what we found was pretty remarkable. So out of all of the cups that act that didn't get crushed in the you know, some of them get crushed before they end up anywhere. Like, in the middle of the road, you'll see, oh, they stop pinging, so we can't track them.
But out of the ones that didn't get crushed, 90% of those cup went to landfill, incineration, or what they call a waste transfer station, which is basically a stop on the way to landfill. Once it goes to waste transfer, it's not going anywhere else but landfill. It's like a small truck brings all the garbage to a waste transfer station, and then a bigger truck picks that step up and just takes it directly to landfill. None of them pinged from a recycling factory. Not a single one. So that was really, you know, pretty telling. I've also tracked many other products too.
So I worked, on a collaboration over the summer when I was in Oregon to prove that the yogurt tubs that many of us buy, I buy them too, which are made of polypropylene, the same material that, Starbucks cups are made of, to prove that they're not recycled.
So I deployed a dozen plus trackers in Portland, and then I also did it in, the cute little town of Astoria, which is way on the border, really fascinating place. So anywhere I went, you know, in Oregon, I would deploy these trackers. And, again, you know, several went right to landfill, several went to sorting facilities, but then we didn't, you know, they didn't really go on after that. None of them came from a recycling factory.
Quite a few ended up in paper mills, which is really concerning because we ship a lot of contaminated paper bales to countries like Malaysia, and then two weeks ago, one of them ping from Malaysia. From a paper mill in Malaysia.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Unbelievable. The
Susan Keefe
very first tracker I put out in Portland, a block from where I used to live in Portland, is now in Malaysia. And it's still pinging. It pinged this morning. So, you know, I mean, okay. People say, oh, that's one thing, but it's actually not because we don't have any factories that recycle polypropylene. When see when Starbucks was asked to provide the a list of the factories that recycle their cups last December, they came back and they provided four. Three of them were not factories. They were just sorting facilities. They don't reprocess. And one was a factory, And that factory is KW Plastics in Alabama.
They are not a big factory. They have the capacity to reprocess about 1% of all of the polypropylene waste in The United States. 1%.And that includes everything, not just cups. So the fact that anyone is claiming that polypropylene, you know, tubs or lids or, you know, cups are recyclable is, is pretty crazy.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Unbelievable. Let's stay on the, you know, the great work that our government does for us. California state law, SB thirteen thirty five, sustainable packaging for California, which went into effect a few years ago.
Susan Keefe
Yeah. I mean, this is a tough one. I was really kind of excited when I learned about this law, but it is a tough nut to crack, I tell you. So this law was passed in 2018, and it didn't go into effect until 2021. So again, lots of time for, you know, state facilities to adjust. And basically, what this law is the backstory is about a year or maybe two years ago, I was on a UCI campus at a sustainability event, which is kind of ironic.
And I was so surprised by all the single use plastic. They were actually even using single use plastic at the sustainability event, and I was like, good god.So I decided to do some research, and I looked in the state's legislative tracker, which is kind of a nightmare to use, but I've learned how to use it, and to see if there were any existing laws on the books that covered, colleges, you know, state owned colleges.
Right? And lo and behold, I found SB thirteen thirty five. And, you know, it was passed by the legislator legislature with the mission to reduce the amount of toxic waste that pollutes our environment by phasing out nonrecyclable, aka plastic, takeout food service packaging. So, again, it's all focused on food service packaging at all state owned facilities, which includes UCs and, Cal States. And, Frank, it applies to any business that is doing business on that state of facility. So it's a cafeteria. It's a vending machine. It's a restaurant.
It's a catering company. It's, delis. You know? It's anyone who prepares and serves foods. It also applies to any expositions or events or fairs. They all cannot have single use plastics. So I was like, okay. Why the heck isn't this being enforced? I mean, I I've been on many state owned facilities, and I see plenty of plastic. So then I look back at our department of resources and recycling, which is CalRecycle.
They're in charge of keeping an approved list of food items that are that are, that actually can be used, what packaging materials can be used on food facilities. And just last month, I was shocked that they went ahead and they updated their list. I thought, oh god. This is gonna be bad. Well, actually, it's still a banned single use plastic. The only single use plastic that is allowed are sushi lids. I don't know why. I guess, because people wanna be able to look and see their sushi. So that's allowed. They exempt lids, which is a bummer, but whatever.
They also exempt straws, which I think is silly, and utensils, which again, I think is silly. But that's okay. Let's just focus on what the law covers. The law covers cups, trays, plates, bowls. We see all those things on campuses and in state facilities. So, you know, I would love anyone who's listening to this podcast who might be working at a state owned facility like Cal State to take some action and talk to your sustainability department and find out why you're not following the law. Because, again, the law has been in effect for quite some time now, and there are plenty of alternatives.
Cal CalRecycle does a good job of actually listing not only the alternatives, but I think it provides the SKU numbers. It might even provide the cost, but it's all there. So it's not as if it's a big heavy lift. Right? As, you know, the ordering department at the, you know, various cafes and restaurants should be able to just swap out their plastic cups for a fiber cup, and ideally look at using reusables. I think college campuses are, you know, a great spot for, you know, reusable items.
I haven't seen too many state schools doing that, but quite a few private colleges are going in that direction. There's a wonderful company called Useful that I've talked to multiple times, and they're doing all stainless steel reusables. In fact, I connected them with a retirement community in San Diego, and that retirement community is changing all their takeout to Useful.And then when people are done, they just, you know, deposit it like they would in a recycling bin.
They just deposit it in a, you know, in a bin to have it sanitized and cleaned. So it's a it's a really good system and one that I would be so happy to see at our universities and our state schools.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
I'll see who I can connect, with you at the CSU system. So give me a give me a little time to to try to strategize about that. Okay?
Susan Keefe
That would be terrific. I have reached out to Cal, by the way. Cal students were kind of involved in this for a little bit. But, you know, it's a big it's a it's a we have we could start small. We can just start with one campus, you know, and then and then get it done there and go to the next campus. Right? It doesn't have to be, like, everything all at once even though the law has been in effect for years.
I mean, I think at this point, just, you know, getting a small win would, you know, be better than nothing.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
So there's so much out there that one could be involved in, and there's so many things that are occurring simultaneously out there, not only locally, in one's community, in the state, in the country, in the world, that people can be very overwhelmed by everything, all the news, all the fake news, for example.
So, but what are some of those simple, meaningful actions that, you know, your neighbors, you know, one's friends, one's family can do to reduce plastic in their homes and in the surrounding areas?
Susan Keefe
Yeah. That's a great question. I mean, it is really overwhelming. And a lot of people say, look, I'm just one person. You know? What can I do? And I there's absolutely things that each of us can do, especially now that we know that recycling doesn't work when it comes to plastic. So we have to remember that. But we could start with our own buying habits. Right? I mean, be aware of what you purchase that's in plastic. Sometimes it's unavoidable. I buy things in plastic. I buy my yogurt in yogurt tubs. Right? So I I don't, you know, I don't worry about that.
I'm not gonna start making my own yogurt. But, when you're out shopping, look for plastic free alternatives. They're out there. Beyond Plastics, who, you know, I work for, they have plastic free recommendations. I also have a a section of my website, eco forward, that has swaps simple swaps that everybody can do. You know, one big thing that every person can do because we live, you know, in an area where our water quality is actually quite good, stop buying plastic and water bottles.
Just make a commitment. I'm not gonna go to, you know, Costco and buy cases of plastic and water bottles anymore. You know, get a if you're concerned about the way your water tastes, go get a filter. You know, you'll save money. I know those bottles are cheap, but if you add up what people, you know, are spending on plastic water bottles, it's, you know, millions and millions of dollars. Right? And those bottles, again, yes, there is some recycling for plastic water bottles, but, it's still very polluting. All of it is from beginning to end.
So I think that is a huge thing that we can do. Bring your own aluminum or steel, you know, water bottle when you go out. Another thing people can do, and I do this I did this last night. I was out on a boat, and I had to bring snacks, and I, brought a little Indian Tiffin. I don't know if you've ever seen one of those or, like, these stainless steel, nesting containers. It's called a Tiffin, t I f f I n.
You can find them on Amazon.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Yeah. New word for me today. So
Susan Keefe
Yeah. They're terrific. I I learned about them from all my trips to India, and they're great. And people were like, wait. Where did you get that thing? And it was so terrific. I had all my snacks in this cute little easy to carry Tiffin and the the little things all nest inside of each other. So these are, like, little things. Everybody go out and buy a Tiffin and an aluminum water bottle and stop buying plastic water. That would be, you know, incredible. Another thing you could do is, you know, conduct a household waste audit. You know? Just look at what you're using at home.
Do you really need to keep buying laundry that's filled with phthalates and other bad chemicals in a big jug when you could get a compostable little, you know, tablet that's you can easily put I've been doing it for five years now. There's lots of companies out there that are making it. They're on Amazon. You can go to Whole Foods or Sprouts or whatever grocery store. Bluelam is a great one. Meliora is another great one that I use. Those are two really good ones. But I think the the big thing that, you know, those are all, like, personal things. I I think that the big thing we all have the power to do is to talk about this, you know, is to talk about the pollution, to talk about the health harms, to demand that we start to pass some ordinances.
We have basically none here in Orange County. Go show up at a at a city council meeting, and anybody who wants a a pal to go with them, just let me know because I love going to city council meetings and talking about these things. I mean, we've elected these officials to represent us and to keep us safe and protect our health. And I think if we want to really see systemic change, we need to all do our part to, you know, to do that.
And you know, I think some of the biggest waste culprits are, you know, single use plastic food items. That's what we find on beach cleanups, the cups, the lids, the stirrers, the little plugs, the utensils, all of it, All of it's I think that would be, an amazing thing that people could start to do. Again, start small. It's about progress, not perfection. You know, I always say a small thing to do is better than doing nothing at all.
So looking ahead, say, the next five years, what would success look to you like?
Oh, boy. Well, given who's running the country and the state of the EPA, I think, we've obviously taken a very huge step back in terms of pollution and public health and national legislation. But in spite of that, I think there's, there's definitely, as I said, things we can do at the local level, and that's where I'm focused. So I think success will be seeing more people come together and talk about these issues, especially here in Southern California where I spend a lot of my time.
A movement of people who are really interested in learning about plastic and what they can do about it.And I think in five years, if we didn't see so many plastic water bottles for sale and actually started seeing refill water stations like we see at the airport, you know, at our shopping malls and in our schools and in our public, you know, buildings.
I mean, that would be a huge win if we if we weren't able to buy plastic water bottles in, you know, places. Instead, they shift to aluminum. We'd have to provide some subsidies, I think, for that because aluminum's much more expensive. But just getting people in the habit of, you know, not purchasing a plastic water bottle, would be an enormous win. And then I think just, you know, having less takeout containers that are made of plastic.
You know, having more restaurants and grocery stores shift to fiber alternatives, which are, you know, disposable. They're biodegradable. You know, those kinds of shifts would definitely spell success to me.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
Thank you, Susan.
Susan Keefe
Thank you, Frank.
Dr. Frank A. Gomez
And that concludes this episode of All Things STEM.A sincere thank you to Susan Keith, California Director of Beyond Plastics, for sharing her journey, insights, and unwavering commitment to reducing plastic pollution. Her work reminds us that meaningful change begins with awareness, accountability, and action, both individually and collectively. Be sure to join us next time for more insightful conversations that illuminate the intersection of STEM, society, and innovation. Stay connected by catching up on past episodes at calstate.edu/allthingsstempodcast.
And don't forget to subscribe on Simplecast, Spotify, iTunes, or your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, stay curious, stay informed, and keep making an impact.